6 replies to this topic

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Hello everyone. Haven't been around a lot lately. The last time I posted something it was probably in relation to my being 95% clear, finding the last missing piece in my acne puzzle, or another way of expressing the same stagnation. Or maybe I was arguing against flaws I see in the views offered by the academia and the media on issues such as science, psychology and biology. I digress, but only because it's all interconnected in my mind (and, unbelievably yes, all related to my conception of acne).

Anyway, some crazy months later, I'm back again and finally 100% sure that I have the potential to be 100% acne free and happy whenever I want it. Long story short, after finding out about some pretty shocking things that were going on around me (I mean among family and friends, past and present), I experienced something you might call a spiritual awakening.

Don't worry, I'm not here to preach about Hare Krishna, Jesus, or Dogen. I'm just saying that I had a profound experience (or a string of events culminating in a number of experiences, rather) that forced me to view my life from a totally opposite direction.

And with that shock to my system, many of my illusions shattered, including my relationship to my skin. When you're in what I would call, necessarily grandly, "a state of love," it's pretty impossible for you to have acne. Now I'm sure that a few people are in that state all the time, but most of us go through life with various kinds of ailments. Some of us have skin problems, and those of us here have the most visible one of them all, acne.

Your acne is always trying to tell you something--whether's it's about diet, bad stamina, bad sleeping habits, or emotional issues. In this sense I believe Seppo is fully correct. And commercial (and natural) medical science may provide a way to make your acne disappear, but this also tends to mean that you become unconscious and unaware of the issues underlying your acne, potentially leading to more problems.

But being acne free regardless of the external factors (diet, exercise, sleep, environment) that contribute to your well-being, that is the hardest part, I think. I've been sort of daring myself these past days to prove myself that acne can be not affected by a bad diet, a lack of exercise, odd hours of sleep; basically not caring much for your body. Well, I found out at least one thing: my mind is not strong enough for this challenge. I seem to be willing to return to my rational and conservative beliefs and thoughts (my old acne and angst and lethargy filled days), while I'm perfectly aware that the most radical ideas (infinite love regardless of past hurts) would lead to me being a more wholesome person than ever before in my life.  

So conquering, or rather giving up, acne is a task for the whole being, not just the physical body and the analytical mind. For years I've liked the baseline of health idea in Seppo's books, i.e. these various external and internal factors affect your well-being. I still think this Barron's idea largely applies. I would only add that the deepest (unconscious) levels of your mind affect your entire system all the time. So although you might be able to somewhat control your acne through means like diet, skin care and exercise, the inevitable slip ups would make the acne bacteria raise their sleeping heads, resulting in the surfacing of other issues as well. And even with these external tools, it's often the placebo effect that's alleviating your acne. Since (you believe that) diet affects acne, then (you must also believe that) with a perfect diet (defined by some "authority" that is surely right), you can improve your acne.

But I continually learn things. And now after having the most beautiful skin in my adult life, I became arrogant, assumed my old habits, not expecting my whole being to react (which in my case happened through acne and the slow return of my multiple phobias). What madness.

You have to be in a certain overall state to not have acne. No one has the same psychophysicalsocial make up so there's no one cure for it. But the minute your conscious and unconscious mind agree that there is no need for acne, that is the moment when your acne disappears.

I truly hope that this makes sense to you. If you suffer from acne or any kind of emotional issue, I sincerely believe that you will find some nugget of truth here that could be used toward your own well-being.

Seppo, I really think you'd enjoy, if you're not already familiar with, the writings of Alejandro Jodorowsky on psychomagic (it's basically a mixture of psychoanalysis, folk healing and art and everything beyond).

He has a a couple of books available in English, but for starters you might want to check out this program: . The first 30 minutes focus on the theory of Jodorowsky's psychomagic (really acts of healing), and the final 30 minutes show the treatment and curing of two individuals right there on the live program. It's truly fascinating stuff. Jodorowsky is a radical in the truest sense, and his style may take some getting used to, but I assure you: there is a beautiful method to his madness.

Coincidentally, there's a remarkable similarity between some of Jodorowsky's and Dr. Grossbart's ideas, owing of course to their ideological background. Yet I find it rather curious and reassuring that two so entirely different persons have come to the exact same conclusions by way of such different routes.

Moreover, I'm certain that the honey mask thing you speak about, Seppo, could work as a psychomagical act IF one considers its symbolic dimensions. For one, honey represents heaven on earth ("land of milk and honey") and gold (it's the same color; precious) and in a sense the best nature has to offer (flowers make it and bees treasure it). It's also a stronge substance, thicker than blood surely, and has a vibrant scent. Even the aspirin would help in the act since it is the archetypal drug and one that actually seems to work; weirdly enough, it also works to convince your rational mind of its value. Rubbing this mixture gently and lovingly into your skin would symbolically show the face of your body that it is loved and appreciated through this act of giving it honey, and is thus free to heal. Whether there's a physiological reaction to the mixture is of less importance than a person's absolute conviction in the act to work. And achieving that conviction, my friends, may be the trickiest part.

[Seppo]

Thanks for posting this. I'm really glad to hear that you found the solution to your acne. Though, after reading your post I'm not quite sure what it is. I got the idea that when you are "in a state of love" then your skin clears?

I perhaps don't agree with everything you state here. For example, for many ppl acne is really connected to something they eat. There are also changes in the gut bacteria (leading to leaky gut and chronic inflammation) in many acne sufferers that contribute to acne. Then again, these same changes are affected by and affect stress and emotional state. So stress and negativity affects the gut flora, which then makes stress (and acne) worse). It's a nasty cycle. Stress seems to have a profound impact on the bacterial balance in the gut, and through that way to acne.

I tend to agree with you about the importance of subconscious beliefs on acne, especially on persistent cases. Perhaps these create chronic stress on the body.

Would be interasted to talk this further with you.

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Seppo, on 11 January 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

the solution to your acne. Though, after reading your post I'm not quite sure what it is. I got the idea that when you are "in a state of love" then your skin clears?

Yeah, I expected that might sound a bit new age-y. What I mean is pretty much just feeling at peace with the universe (i.e. yourself and your surroundings), realizing the futility of everyday stress. A shock like mine, going from unconcerned atheist to what you might call philosophical theism in a very short time frame, is excellent in putting things into perspective. Obviously, for most people progress is more gradual, and maintaining this kind of peace is certainly not an easy process. (But yes, I do believe that if you were able to live in this state of pure light, you would no longer have acne, because having acne would not matter in the least. Would that mean perfect skin free of blemishes? Maybe, maybe not. But if your definition of perfect skin is skin that you're 100% comfortable in, then yes, you would have that.)

Seppo, on 11 January 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

I perhaps don't agree with everything you state here. For example, for many ppl acne is really connected to something they eat.

I'm not sure there's a disagreement here. I, too, am most certain that acne is related to diet, because diet contributes to our well-being. I do believe, however, that because stress functions sort of like a multiplier, there can be times when eating the same foods may cause acne, and other times when they do not cause acne.

"So stress and negativity affects the gut flora, which then makes stress (and acne) worse). It's a nasty cycle."

Exactly. What interests me at this point, though, is how much of diet-related acne is psychological and not physiological. For instance, we know that eating junk is bad for us, so we might even punish ourselves through our skin. Or someone told us that eating chocolate leads to acne, so we fulfill that prophecy. On the other hand, eating something sweet every now and then in good company can be a source of so much pleasure that its positive influence on stress levels may overpower the negative physiological effects--no?

A similar example. Touching your face is bad for you, because of irritation and the spreading of bacteria and whatnot. Yet caressing your face can be a more positive influence than whatever negative the bacteria might do you to. That's how I see it anyway.

The hardest part to me is simply not regressing to your old patterns. You have acne for 10+ years, you have certain core beliefs, you do the same stuff--we are creatures of habit. And having acne, and being cranky all the time, can become a habit just like smoking cigarettes or walking the same route everyday.

I have slowly through the years reached the point where I see myself as being "almost clear", and making the leap from "almost clear" to "clear for life" proved to be the most difficult one. A friend just told me about a friend who managed to slowly cut down his cigarette intake to one a day relatively easily, yet giving up that one cigarette turned out to be almost impossible. So the physical part is not as much of an obstacle as learning to see yourself as a non-smoker. It's the same with acne, I think.

[Seppo]

I like that you called stress as 'multiplier'. I've been thinking along the same lines myself also.

Perhaps my view on this is more materialistic than yours. I have actually gone the opposite way from you. I used to be more what you would call spiritual, but since I've started reading critical thinking and skeptical material more my worldview has shifted towards materialism. But we don't have to let this difference affect the discussion.

How much of acne is physiological and how much psychological? That's a hard one to answer.

I'm not sure how much belief as such affect acne. They may and they may not. We really don't have good enough information to say either way.

Of course negative beliefs can cause stress and that way also skin problems, but I'm talking about affecting the skin beyond this stres effect. I have my doubts because placebo effect, as an example, is largely illusion. There have been some studies that show that placebo works in subjective things like pain, headaches and like that. It can even make seriously ill people feel better. But it doesn't cause objective improvements in physiology. Here's a faily good article on the topic:

http://www.scienceba...placebo-effect/

And this quite summarizes the point:

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Asthma is perhaps the perfect disease to demonstrate the folly of his approach. Asthma attacks can kill. If someone is made to feel that they are better because of expectation, investment justification, and other psychological effects — essentially biasing their reporting of their symptoms — while the physiological asthma attacks continues, they are theoretically at higher risk of complications, including death. Kaptchuk, however, pulls the standard — what are you going to listen to, numbers or people. He misses the point. The subjects of his study who received the placebo were not better. They just reported that they were because they felt they were expected to.

http://www.scienceba...placebo-effect/

Anyway, we don't have good data on this. So it's possible beliefs do cause some physiological effect (beyond that of stress and negative emotions), but at this point we just can't say.

I do agree with you about the difficulty in changing our personalities and habits. If you've lived with acne for 20 years, it's ingrained into your personality. So it's possible that you unconsiouly resist getting clear. You might be prone to eating something that's not good for you or avoiding stress management practicies that would help your skin.

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Seppo, on 13 January 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Perhaps my view on this is more materialistic than yours. I have actually gone the opposite way from you. I used to be more what you would call spiritual, but since I've started reading critical thinking and skeptical material more my worldview has shifted towards materialism. But we don't have to let this difference affect the discussion.

I agree all the way, I used to be rational and materialistic to the fullest, but, like I said, I've been forced to rethink my views. And learning to embrace the irrational has been perhaps the most important step I have taken in my 28 years on earth. "But we don't have to let this difference affect the discussion." Exactly.

Seppo, on 13 January 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

I have my doubts because placebo effect, as an example, is largely illusion.

http://www.scienceba...placebo-effect/

I had actually read about a similar (the same?) asthma study ( http://www.scienceda...10713182215.htm ) that the page you linked is criticizing.

"At the study's conclusion, findings showed that treatment with the albuterol inhaler resulted in a 20 percent increase in FEV1 (maximum forced expiratory volume in one second ), a measure of lung capacity. This compared with an increase of approximately seven percent in each of the two placebo treatments as well as the "no treatment" control."

I would not say that 7% vs 20% is a clear-cut case of "no objective improvements in physiology" and "objective improvements in physiology". And I think it's semantics to argue whether or not the placebo effect is "illusion" or not. A patient feeling better is all the "reality" I think is necessary. And moreover, people depending on drugs to improve their physiology in the long-term is hogwash. Besides--and I'm aware of slightly contradicting the previous sentence--cannabis has done more to my well-being than all the pills I've taken in my life combined. Luckily science is waking up to this (all the necessary reseach and data is out there already, to be truthful), although commercial interests, propaganda and conservative thinking are standing in the way of progress, as is so often the case.

Anyway, I do feel that we see eye to eye on the core of these issues, even though our world views may be, excuse the pun, worlds apart.

Not to derail this thread, but I stumbled upon this just now, and found it very interesting:

http://www.msnbc.msn...e/#.Tx6x72HLeoU

I, for one, have had my appendix removed. (And funny enough, I've also had my tonsils removed.) I've had problems with my stomach ever since my appendix got removed around 6th grade. This is clinically documented, too.

[Seppo]

Doctors sometimes do idiotic things in the name of health. Removing appendix is a good example. Luckily, science as a process is self-correcting. As our knowledge improves, so do our methods of treating sickness. But of course this doesn't help the people who already have had their appendix snipped away.

Going back to the asthma study. Yes, the placebo groups also improved, but so did the control group. Basically, there was no difference among the placebo groups and people who had no treatment. The control group "improved" just by sitting at home and having their lung capacity measured. In this case, as the authors stated, there's no objective improvement as a result of placebo.

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"Since there was no difference between either of the placebo treatments and the placebo 'control' [no treatment], we can report that there was no objective placebo effect with regard to change in lung function," says Wechsler.

http://www.scienceda...10713182215.htm

Why did the control group improve by 7%? That's hard to say. Maybe it's a result of random variation in "organic" data like this.

Yes, it's important that patients feel better. But that can be misleading in some cases. In this case the asthma patients felt better without objective improvement to their lung function. It's a dangerous situation, because when the people feel better they might not feel like they need treatment. In the worst case scenario, postponing treatment can mean death.

Of course feeling better is all that matters in things like pain and nausea, conditions that depend on patient's subjective perception.

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I agree all the way, I used to be rational and materialistic to the fullest, but, like I said, I've been forced to rethink my views. And learning to embrace the irrational has been perhaps the most important step I have taken in my 28 years on earth.

I would say for me it's been the opposite. Learning critical thinking and realism has liberated me much better than all the new age woo I was into before. Funny how people are different

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Sorry for the lateness of reply, I feel like a busybee most the time now, as I'm doing things that I've always wanted to but never did (jumpstarting my comatose music career, spending time in sensory deprivation tanks, etc.).

Seppo, on 25 January 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Doctors sometimes do idiotic things in the name of health. Removing appendix is a good example.

Yeah, I had my tonsils removed too at like 3 years old. My mother recently explained my doctor's logic: since I had had ear infections and was prescribed antibiotics several times, the safest thing to do was remove my tonsils.  I mean, I had probably been in more hospitals as a teen than most people will in their lives. I believe my medical history is at least partly due to an inherited and/or experienced trauma, and thus the doctors cutting out parts of me (I've had three surgeries to go with all the gastroscopies, etc.) was akin to removing branches from a tree when the problem lied in the roots.

Here are the all the parts of me that have been affected with "unexplainable" (so doctors tell us) disease.

Eyes (heterophoria, I used glasses til I didn't have to(!) - it is clearly a social disease, with people I feel it, alone there's no problem)
Ears (excessive wax-build up, infections, etc)
Skin (acne, psoriasis)
Lips (exfoliative cheilitis)
Feet (chronic athlete's foot, a chronic rash in my ankle)
Genital area
Appendix
Anal area (hemmorrhoids)
Gut (right after my appendix removal the problems exacerbated; chronic diarrhea, acute diarrhea, excessive gas, pain, i.e. "IBS" or whatever they call anything they don't understand)
Hair growth (My beard growth was patchy until nearly 30 yo.)
Brain (memory loss, fatigue, wakefulness, etc. etc.)
+ probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

So I was one sick puppy. The funny thing is I never consciously saw myself as such (I only focused on the most obvious: my acne). Anyhow, I'm down to the very last few on the list, and health-wise, that puts me above most people I know. So I am extremely grateful for my tribulations and to everyone that has nudged me in the right direction; that includes you, Seppo.

Curing my stress has been a main factor in my healing, and to this end, I have used several tools. One of which has been conquering my fobias: every day I try to do something I have never done. I have done some fairly unorthodox, radical things that probably go against normalized conceptions of "good" taste, stuff I would not recommend people to do without considering and accepting the consequences. If someone stumbles upon this, feel free to PM me with your phobias and I can give you some safe (!) tips on how to conquer them.

To sum up, I think most of my symptoms listed above (acne, hemmorrhoids) stem mainly from emotional issues. Curing those emotional issues and the stress they cause and the stress that feeds them has made me healthier and happier. I think this would apply to everyone.

Seppo, on 25 January 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Learning critical thinking and realism has liberated me much better than all the new age woo I was into before. Funny how people are different

Critical thinking goes to question the very principles that science and philosophy and art (and new age), etc. are built on, it does not expect orthodoxy to challenge orthodoxy. To me, the rationalist dogma has at least in W. Europe and perhaps the USA created a type of human that is in love with a universe that functions like a dull machine. And thus truly believing that Newton>Einstein. And people get less radical in their views as they age, that is normal. For me, it has been the opposite.